The public sentiment on the recovery of hostages' bodies from Gaza is deeply sorrowful and critical, reflecting a complex mix of emotions. While there is sympathy for the hostages and their families, many comments criticize both the Israeli military and Hamas for their roles in the conflict. The tragic situation underscores the chaotic and tragic nature of wartime incidents, fueling frustration and fatigue over the persistent cycle of violence. The broader geopolitical context of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and concerns about media coverage and international response further color public opinion.

Israeli Military

Hamas

The families of the hostages

International community

I live in Israel and I'm fucking gutted. I don't think I've cried since October 7th. There's been moments here and there where I've teared up a little, like when my husband left to go to miluim on the very same day, or when I saw some of the videos, or when I heard the accounts of the released hostages, but I've managed to pull my shit together in the end, which is weird because I've actually been *trying* to cry for the past two and a half months, but I just can't seem to do it. 

I teared up a little more over this, but then the usual numbness took over and I've just been drinking in bed since I saw the news. It just feels like indignity after indignity that Hamas is piling up on the people of Israel, Jewish AND Arab. 

I can't even begin to imagine what their families are going through, what the hostages experienced as they were sure they were going to be rescued only to realize they were being killed by their own people, what the soldiers responsible must be going through. 

Do you remember way back when Samir Kuntar was the most hated man in Israel because what he did was so heinous that it seemed almost inconceivable? It feels disgusting to say this, but I long for the days when that was the bar.

AdiPalmer

looktowindward

i had a terrible moment hoping it's not hersh.

felt terrible breathing a sigh of relief it's not hersh.

im not doing well here. just following Rachel's lead.

[deleted]

I’ve never seen friendly fire focused on as much as in this conflict. War is chaotic, accidents will be rampant.

Super-Minh-Tendo

Yeah, and of course r/news is having a field day saying "well they shouldn't be shooting at civilians," as if the IDF didn't specifically say they thought those hostages had been moved so they assumed everyone was an enemy combatant. I don't agree a lot with how Israel is handling things, but for fucks sake this isn't a movie, fog of war is a thing and unfortunately shit like this happens even in the best cases when there isn't a war going on. Just incredible how stupid people are...

whereamInowgoddamnit

I saw when the news broke :( ugh I feel so bad for the families. Hamas using those poor people as shields…

athousandfuriousjews

I saw it when I was with my family after doing Kiddush. It literally broke my heart. More information came out today that made it even worse. I can't imagine the pain of the families. I live in Israel, and I can tell you that we're going through a horrible, unimaginable tragedy since October 7th. It's hard to describe what we're going through as a country

tinofet_yehudit

I'm sure the soldiers feel terrible too... I feel worse for them in a lot of ways...

Suburbking

The IDF intentionally fired on them. The 3rd one survivived, hid, called out in hebrew for help. He was shot again when he re-emerged.

tnynm

Misleading headline. IDF didn’t KILL anyone. Hamas did. If these people weren’t kidnapped they would be alive today. Stop the bs

it’s horrible. and the way people are jumping for joy because it gives them one more thing to criticize the IDF over… :(

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AutoModerator

Horrible but all thanks to Hamas. I also read Hamas is using suicide bombers to go after IDF soldiers! 💔💔💔💔

It wasn’t that accidental. They were shirtless and holding small white flags. Ceasefire was ordered after the first two but after a pause someone shot the third guy anyways.

classyfemme

OkRice10

Tragic and heartbreaking. This happens in war and Israel has acknowledged the mistake and will provide more information as they investigate. There may have been more factors in play that led to the error. I'm sure everyone feels horrible about it. And again--if Hamas hadn't broken the ceasefire and launched the 10/7 attack, everyone would be home and alive.

Frabjous_Tardigrade9

From my time in the USAF I have an absolute disdain for reporters. The Jews is not going to blame Hamas for having hostages and other civilians front and center in a firefight, they will try to make the soldiers look incompetent...

My prayers go out to the families and hostages.

Dreading to see how people will twist it, too. I hurt for these families. I was thinking of them yesterday.

Any word on the Bibas family by the way?

Shomer_Effin_Shabbas

Beyond heartbreaking and I keep thinking of the joyous “to good to be true” alternative of them being rescued, it was so close—Hollywood perfect ending and a bit of joy and hope that is so needed.

SassyBee2023

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They look completely healthy and well treated honestly

Israel kidnaps so many people to bring to their “detention” centres .. most are never seen again. 

Israel is going to keep bombing and blocking aid to innocent people regardless of what agreement is signed. 

Trump just signed an executive order to stop all foreign aid EXCEPT aid to Israel and Egypt .. I wonder why? lol 

I don’t know if Israel is a puppet for the USA or if the USA is a puppet for Israel lol

Stacysguyca

These women are Israeli soldiers so they’re prisoners of war. I’m so tired of people saying they’re “innocent girls” when they are soldiers of a genocidal army. It’s great that they are going home, but the media generally spinning it as if they were just random civilians is disingenuous.

sandiego22

It's nice they are free.  Hopefully, all hostages will be released.  What is horrible is that as this is going on, the IDF is now abducting Palestinians from the West Bank.

Minute-Flan13

When Israel return’s Palestinians they’ve kidnapped they look like they were subjected to nonstop torture

traanquil

If it were Israeli armies, those prisoners would be treated far worse given what is happening to women and kids.

MalikBrotherR

The US needs to start by requiring that each side release their prisoners. Then we need to scale down our “aid”. Our leaders have been bought out by Israel and are not acting in the interest of America. And we are funding their genocide. It has to stop.

roguebandwidth

They look like they're saying goodbye to old friends lmao.

Aluja89

Obviously this is propaganda, but just look at their faces. They look better off than every single palestinian held in israli camps and even most palestinians in gaza. You can tell just from looking at them they were treated like humans.

JustaBearEnthusiast

If it were Israeli armies, those prisoners would be treated far worse.

*prisoners of war 

Military personnel who are taken captive while on duty in uniform are not hostages. They are prisoners of war.

WebBorn2622

They look to be in excellent condition. 

Now show the Palestinian hostages.

HippoRun23

the title difference for this more-or-less exact video on r/thatsinsane is insane itself.

"..hostages paraded.." and then comments strictly about Hamas uniforms and only willing to wear them if not under attack to hide better among the general population...  


I'm convinced that sub is just IDF soldiers working double-time to maintain the veneer.

InitialTACOS

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Why is this post being downvoted? Should Israeli families not deserve to bury their dead instead of having them kept prisoner in an unknown location by a terror group? Is the IDF trying to rescue hostages, alive or dead, inherently evil in your eyes?

I'm sure this comment will be downvoted with plenty of whataboutism about Palestinian victims.

LowRevolution6175

After so many years of prolonged fighting and lost of innocent lives ON BOTH SIDES. I wish to say this. Fuck Israel military. Fuck natanyahu. Fuck hamas. Fuck terrorists.

Free Palestine and let it live in peace.

AvangeliceMY9088

Its been up for 6 hours now and this has a negative score still....

So can someone explain to me why this article upset this sub so damn much?

It makes no sense to me. You guys are downvoting an article about innocent peoples bodies being brought back.

Zipz

&gt;The United States has been clear: We would not support any measure that fails to condemn Hamas and does not call for Hamas to disarm and leave Gaza

Then Israel can keep their genocide going while minimizing casualties. Believing the US or Israel is the dumbest thing ever.

hectorgarabit

All this bloodshed for recovering two corpses, meanwhile more Palestinians and hostages are dying and Netenyahu still refuses to do a deal and leave, or even offer the Palestinians a meaningful alternative to repel against Hamas, just continuing slaughter and starvation and displacement as weapons for no purpose but to punish the Palestinians

okabe700

Bot didn't copy paste so here goes:

The bodies of a couple taken into Gaza by Hamas during the 7 October attacks have been recovered by Israeli forces, the country's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has announced.

He said the bodies of husband and wife Judi Weinstein Haggai, 70, and Gad Haggai, 72, were recovered during a special operation by the Israeli military and the country's security agency, Shin Bet.

Mr Netanyahu said they were killed on 7 October, 2023, and their bodies taken into Gaza by Hamas.

In a statement, he said: "Together with all the citizens of Israel, my wife and I extend our heartfelt condolences to the dear families.

"Our hearts ache for the most terrible loss. May their memory be blessed.


"We will not rest or be silent until we return all of our abductees home - the living and the dead alike."

The Hostages and Missing Persons Families Forum has been campaigning for the safe return of all Israeli citizens held hostage by Hamas.

The hostage families said in a statement: "The return of Judi and Gad is painful and heartbreaking, yet it also brings healing to our uncertainty.

"Their return reminds us all that it is the state's duty to bring everyone home, so that we, the families, together with all the people of Israel, can begin the process of healing and recovery.


"Decision-makers must do everything necessary to reach an agreement that will return all 56 remaining hostages - the living for rehabilitation and the deceased for burial. There is no need to wait another 608 agonising days for this.

"The mission can be completed as early as tomorrow morning. This is what the majority of the Israeli people want."

Most of the hostages returned alive to Israel so far have been released as part of deals with Hamas during two temporary ceasefires in late 2023 and early 2025.

The most recent ceasefire that saw a pause in the fighting and the exchange of Israeli hostages and Palestinian prisoners fell apart in March.

Israel has rejected calls for an unconditional or permanent ceasefire, saying Hamas cannot stay in Gaza.

On Wednesday, the US vetoed a draft UN Security Council resolution that demanded an "immediate, unconditional and permanent ceasefire" between Israel and Hamas militants in Gaza and unhindered aid access across the the war-ravaged territory.

The other 14 countries on the council voted in favor of the draft.

"The United States has been clear: We would not support any measure that fails to condemn Hamas and does not call for Hamas to disarm and leave Gaza," said Dorothy Shea, acting US ambassador to the UN, ahead of the vote.

She told the council it would also undermine US-led efforts to broker a ceasefire.

DanDan1993

It's a shame Israel has been oppressing and slaughtering Palestinians, in the continued expansion of their colonisation of Palestine spanning decades, which led to the events of their capture and subsequent deaths.

rabidfusion

Three paragraphs in this post are in violation of the sub’s rules, therefore I’ve locked this thread. While we know 1,500 is a large number to aim for, we’ve done so in order to enhance the sub experience and to turn this into a sub for discussion and debate, rather than a news sub.

Please feel free to edit and repost once you’ve substantiated with more content.

dadarkdude

This tracks with what most of what the people paying attention to this have said from the beginning.

The IDF are indiscriminately targeting civilians. That’s just a fact further proven by this sorry event. You’ll still get the pro-Israeli voice coming up with excuses but you really just have to look at what’s happening to understand the truth.

While I have limited exposure to the exact details, I’m inclined to say that this is representative of what we’ve all known: Israel’s brutal and indiscriminate use of force is intentional, aimed at harming and dispersing innocent civilians. It just so happened that this time, it was their own civilians. 

As sad as this is, I’m surprised Israel killing its own hostages didn’t happen sooner.

Avian_Sentry

Apparently, they were dressed like local Gazans, which was threatening enough that they were fired upon.

TomatoNo1742

Calew21

At least they didn't lie like hamas would they messed up its war they weren't thinking hostages would be roaming around sad shit though

Savings_Debate_5482

I think this is one of the saddest days of the war so far

HappyGirlEmma

u/Dmitri-Yuriev84 if you dont tag it as “Discussion”, there is no minimum 1,500 words requirements

BigCharlie16

It doesn't appear that Israel was trying to cover up this incident. That alone earns them the benefit of the doubt that they weren't being indiscriminate, and as they are investigating this, will take appropriate action should it be determined this was the result of violation on the part of individual soldiers, and/or their leadership.

mythxical

&gt;The three hostages who escaped from captivity and were mistakenly shot by Israeli forces are Yotam Haim, 28, Samer Fuad El-Talalka, 24 and Alon Shamriz, 26

1. Do you think IDF knows where their hostages are being held ? Or they dont know ? 

2. What kind of survival training would they have received during their national service ? Are they thought what to do if they are abducted by enemies and how to identify oneself as unarmed, not a threat or a civilian to an IDF personnel in an active warzone ? 

3. Do you think IDF has already written off their hostages, presumed dead ? 

4. Do you expect to see more bodies of hostages as IDF continues its military campaign towards south Gaza or do you expect to see more hostages rescued and freed ?

5. I am actually more shocked by the mistaken shooting of the Israeli civilian Castleman when he intervened in a recent terror attack in Jerusalem. He had his hands in the air, on his knees, reportedly saying don’t shoot, i am jewish, i am israeli. And yet he was shot and killed by an IDF reservist. I am not sure what else Castleman could have done. The IDF soldier has been arrested. Jerusalem was not an active warzone compared to this incident in Gaza.

6. Could this boils down to inexperience of IDF reservist ? 18/19 years old, not much experience, prone to mistakes ?

Are we even surprised? It’s sky clear that the IDF doesn’t care about the hostages, they literally follow the “kill them all” policy

A horrible mistake. Combat is chaos and things like this happen in chaotic situations. This has ruined the lives of many. The three dead, and their family and friends. I promise you it has also ruined the lives of these probably young soldiers who accidentally shot the wrong people. War is hell.

Responsible-Golf-583

A lot of friendly fire reports from Israel army even on the 7th of October, but it’s weird they actually admitted it this time, 

I don’t buy the story of seeing them then deciding to shoot them , they probably died from an air strike , I might be wrong 🤷🏻‍♂️

On other note, netenyahu is doing his best to drag this war as long as he can in hopes of something miraculous happens because he knows he’s getting sacked after the war 

In regards of the sub, yes, their posting rules are getting ridiculous

Other-Veterinarian80

&gt;What are people’s thoughts on the issue?

Sad. That’s all.

I really think people have lost sight on what warfare is and why it’s awful. Especially now with social media and you are seeing a more personalized version of it, people are shocked by reality. War is shocking. The only difference today is social media making it more visible.

Most soldiers are in the 18-24 age group, and are in an area where another (most likely) teenager/young adult can pop-up anywhere to take their lives. It’s stressful, and under stress people make bad decisions. 

This has nothing to do with Israel’s objective, or any other conspiratorial beliefs going around. Soldiers are still individuals, young ones at that, and will make mistakes. Some of which are despicable and punishable under the IDF codes of conduct.

As far as unguided missiles go, I don’t think that’s too much of a story? I mean, accuracy from airstrikes comes mostly from the pilot while attacking static objects, which buildings are. I don’t think it’s any proof of indiscriminate bombing as some believe.

aqulushly

My thoughts is that you tried to twist it, they didn’t shot them because they “thought they were Palestinians”, it was because they mistakenly identified them as Hamas terrorists. Unfortunately friendly fire is a common occurrence in urban warfare and it happened in Shejaiya which is an extremely dense and complex area in Gaza. We still have to wait for the investigation, until that we can’t say for sure what really happened there and why it happened.

About the CNN report, it also reported that Israel use dive bombing when they’re using unguided bombs which increase the accuracy of it, you forgot this part.

SplitBig6666

i imagine the relief of these men seeing the IDF and thinking they were finally getting rescued, only to be shot and killed instead. heartbreaking. 

palestinians have been saying since the beginning of time that israel indiscriminately kills. it’s sad that this had to happen for the world to finally see it. i also saw a video of an entire family killed, execution style. one of the family members had a white flag in his hand but he was still shot. 

the IDF is going on a mass killing spree in gaza. if they’re not dropping bombs from the sky, they’re executing on the ground. one of the released hostages stated one of her fears was being killed by the IDF, but her death being reported as killed by hamas instead.

Any-Toe-5775

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DeltaBot

Isn't the most common call for retrieving hostages a ceasefire deal that involves a hostage swap? It's popular in Israel, in the Western political class, and pro-Palestine protestors as well. I don't think your framing of "many calling for targeted operation war" is accurate for pro-Palestine protestors, especially when many are explicitly calling for a ceasefire, with the understanding that hostages will be retrieved in this manner.

Edit: I have noticed a bit of delta misuse in this thread. They are only awarded to people who already agree with OP's premise

If Russia hid Ukrainian hostages in different civilian areas and guarded them and then made sure that to get to the Russian soldiers and Ukrainian hostages you'd have to kill innocent Russians would a hostage rescue that kills 300 Russian civilians to get 4 Ukrainian hostages be justified? no, just don't do a raid that you know will disproportionately affect civilians

Genji_Revan

I don't condone Israel's actions overall but isn't this an example of a successful targeted operation?

They tried to rescue hostages alive. They rescued hostages alive despite heavy combat.

LucidMetal

What, exactly, is "the "targeted operation" myth"?

Thereelgerg

You have this exactly backwards. 

Before this raid, 35,000 Palestinians were killed which lead to the rescue of 3 hostages. This raid killed around 200 people for 4 rescued hostages. This raid proves that either 

1: targeted raids lead to a much lower civilian death count per freed hostage or 
2: before this raid the idf was making no attempts at rescuing hostages. 

And this is to say nothing of the hostages who have unquestionably been killed by the idf bombing campaign. 

What all of this proves, is that Palestinian lives have no value. 

Fawxes42

There is one method of hostage extraction proven to be effective, with no civilian cost. Diplomacy. You don’t have to be a history buff to know that most conflicts end sat around a table signing papers. Of course, this fundamentalist Israeli government would rather risk their own hostages safety than concede absolutely anything to Palestine.

zsht

There is a big difference between leveling an entire territory's infrastructure and killing combatants. Part of what people are decrying when they call for a "targeted operation war" is the indiscriminate destruction of Gaza's ability to rebuild itself in the aftermath of this conflict. Their schools, hospitals, homes, and community centers have all been destroyed, which will create conditions for famine, starvation, and poverty. This kind of indiscriminate punishment *is a war crime* under international law, and should be condemned as such.

Sub0ptimalPrime

&gt;Assuming the 275 civilian death number is accurate, you get an average of 68.75 Palestinian civilians killed for every Israeli hostage recovered.

Not even Hamas is asserting "275 civilian deaths."  Hamas numbers routinely do not distinguish between civilian and militant death tolls at all.  If they are quoting 275 dead that's not going to mean "275 civilians dead" unless you believe that every single person killed in the operation is a civilian which is highly unlikely.

Roadshell

your entire position is predicated on the assumption that the hundreds of civilians who were killed or maimed as a result of this operation were a necessary or unavoidable consequence of recovering the hostages. this is patently false. of all the hostages recovered since october 7th, the overwhelming majority, 105, were freed as the result of negotiations during a temporary ceasefire. as a result of israel's ongoing military operations in gaza, 7 hostages have been recovered at the cost of hundreds of civilian casualties, 3 hostages were executed by their own forces, at least one other hostage was killed during another rescue operation, and an unknown number of hostages have all but certainly died as a result of israeli airstrikes and are likely buried under the rubble in gaza alongside tens of thousands of other innocent civilians. the israeli government has rejected multiple peace offers that would have seen every single hostage in gaza returned to their homes and their families months ago. 

even ignoring that, there's very little reason to believe that in carrying out this operation the idf took appropriate measures to limit civilian casualties. they have done very little to earn any kind of benefit of the doubt by dropping 2000lbs bombs on one of the most densely populated urban environments on planet earth, by cutting off all water and power and preventing the flow of food and medical supplies into gaza, by rendering every single hospital in the gaza strip non-functional, by deliberately targeting and assassinating humanitarian aid workers fighting the famine israel has intentionally imposed on civilians in gaza, by using ai systems to generate kill lists and target low ranking fighters in their homes while they are surrounded by civilians, or by bombing multiple refugee camps. the rhetoric and actions of both the idf and the israeli government have repeatedly demonstrated an abject lack of concern for the lives of palestinian civilians as well as any recognition of their humanity. they have also repeatedly demonstrated that they are willing to deliberately lie, deceive, and mislead whenever it seems to suit their needs. there is no reason to trust that civilian casualties caused by the hostage rescue operation in al-nuseirat were either necessary or unavoidable without significant evidence from an independent investigation.

InFlamesWeTrust

This is an actual constructive discussion about the Israel-Hamas war involving multiple differing perspectives engaging in fair discourse, I'm positively stumped.

Prestigious_Bank9428

It's war. You do your best to minimize civilian casualties, but there is no such thing as a targeted operation outside of maybe assassination of one person.

We really need to put an end to all these buzz words and deal with the reality of war. 

There is no such thing as a targeted operation. It's war, people are going to die.

There is no such thing as an acceptable level of attack. There are legitimately people who sit there and say well it's okay for people to launch attacks on Israel and Israel not respond because it has the iron dome or the missiles are poorly guided and don't hit.

Yes, you try your best to minimize casualties. 

Yes, you try your best to control your troops to not rape or commit other atrocities.

Beyond that... expect deaths until operations end. It is war.

There is no such thing as a targeted anything if you coral millions of people into 64sq. Km. Heck. All of Gaza is 365sq. Km.

#thats 5,500 people per sq. Km. Of not Rafah, or Khan younis, BUT GAZA.

.

Those of you who are quick to claim that people around are involved. Think about that number and take into consideration that even with that tight number, Israel has indeed bombed safe areas prior. Stuffing people even more closer.

In this conflict children have been killed. Many doctors (western who went to serve and returned) have claimed that the injuries they have sustained are targeted. 

Why would a sniper aim for a child?

OP goes on about international law, how Israel has to follow it but Hamas isn't doing that. Fine. Would you like Israel to be designated a terrorist organization like Hamas then? Either you obey the standards you enjoy or join those who do not.

hotel_ohio

Compared to WW1,2, Korea, Vietnam, the raid your describing is targeted.  People are forgetting what war is and average redditor is childishly naive, but at the same time we don't need to start carpet bombing.

I_ATE_THE_WORM

To be fair if you’re rescuing your own citizens who have been kidnapped and held hostage, it’s basically at any cost - there’s no such thing as proportionate.

ChangingMonkfish

So in other words, Western countries will never be able to defeat an asymmetric enemy?  With these rules, I'd agree.

Medical-Peanut-6554

Oh, noooooo, terrorists harbouring kidnapped innocent civilians were killed while trying to thwart their rescue!

Any civilians killed in the crossfire is tragic, but the blood is 100% on the hands of Hamas. Thankfully, the innocent Palestinians are beginning to wake up to the fact that Israel are not the bad guys or the ones oppressing them.

&gt;CMV: The latest IDF raid to rescue four hostages debunks the “targeted operation” myth

It doesn't. This was obviously a well planned and successful mission to rescue innocent hostages. How is that not targeted???

I tell you what it DOES debunk, though, that the hostages are all being kept underground in tunnels. That was a normal home that was raided.

mikebenb

Is it OK for Hamas to massacare 350000 innocent jews to rescue the over 3800 Palestinian hostages in Israeli detention camps?

Delicious-Blueberry5

In a war like this, where one side intentionally blurs the line between civilian and combatant, it is extremely difficult to tell what fraction of the dead are noncombatants.

Additionally, "noncombatant", "women and children", "journalist", and "aid worker" do not mean innocent. There was a Hamas complex under the UN RWA headquarters, Al Jazeera journalists participated in the October 7th attacks, in the past women and children have acted as suicide bombers, and outside of the propaganda videos Hamas fighters do their damnedest to look like noncombatants.

grumpy_grunt_

So looking at this factually:

1) Hamas are particularly sore about losing the hostages and have no issue inflating the numbers for a political backlash from Hamas-sympathetic countries or global organisations. 

2) If Hamas is careless about its own citizen's lives by placing hostages in between them, then the reported heavy firefight as the IDF soldiers were retreating with the hostages, means that Hamas could have easily killed citizens. For reference, Hamas was reporting to use RPGs, heavy machine guns and grenades which all could have hit palestinian civilians. 

3) There are 2 legal issues that are not being addressed with these figures. One is that civilians that were placed in charge of keeping the hostages should no longer be considered civilians. Two, Hamas had fighters pour into the region to prevent the release. Both indicate that even a high number of deaths, could still be majority combatants.

tkyjonathan

It wasn’t “Hamas” that was holding the hostages either. It was a journalist and a doctor. Very much so would be listed as “civilians”. 

Then you see how many UNRWA school teachers and admins have been calling for martyrdom, killing of Jews and Israelis, and Islamic supremacy - all documented, with actions taking place as a result of their indoctrination. Then you have schools and mosques and hospitals being used as storage facilities for rockets, ammo, and weapons. 

Not even to begin to mention that these hostages weren’t being held in some underground bunker, they were being held in a better-than-average apartment building people were actively living in.

The people, and organizations like the BBC/CNN/etc who take Hamas’ numbers and then say “well it’s not worth this many lives” have no clue what they’re talking about. If it were a British national or an American they’d kill 1000 babies to get a single hostage safely out of the hellhole that is Islamic terrorism. And it would be justified. 

Btw Israel claims that it was less than 100 total casualties. Hamas claims its 275ish civilians. I don’t trust either number. So let’s say 150 total (Hamas and “civilians” and civilians), that’s worth it.

Wars aren’t fought on an even playing field, and if this were the USA fighting in Gaza, the results would be at the very least similar - with nobody having issues of “disproportionality”. Wars are disproportionate. That’s how you win them.

beejer91

You understand this recent “surgical operation” involved a rather intense aerial bombardment that was likely responsible for the majority of the deaths? From what I’ve read the gun fighting seemed to be fairly limited and only 1 Israeli was killed during it. Typically when people say “targeted operation” they mean what was done to Osama Bin Laden.

I think Israel saying “this was surgical” of course doesn’t make it so. Israel says a lot of bullshit and for some reason a lot of people eat it up like it’s a sundae on a hot summers day.

FerdinandTheGiant

You disproved your own point in your post. If targeted operations to retrieve hostages would have resulted in 17,000 civilian deaths, that would still be half of the current death toll, and there’s still more hostages being held. So, by your own metrics, indiscriminate bombings are significantly less effective at preserving civilian lives than targeted operations would be.

austinbucco

The only thing that I think is important to mension here is that there is a massive proportionality calculation when you are rescuing your own citizen vs. targeting militants. 

I think this is a case where the argument 'any other country would have done the same thing' holds true. 

But the proportionality calculation when targeting militants, imo is still too high.

aturtlenamedmack4

In 8 months they’ve rescued 6 while killing tens of thousands.  This is not progress, Israel needs to be stopped.

mendezvero

You can't compare post operation casualties to either zero or some estimated number based on an ideal operation.   First and foremost hamas is guilty of the origianl Oct 7th terrorist attract, murder, rape and kidnapping.   Next hamas is guilty of hiding among civilians.   Hamas lies about war casualties.   

It is not the IDFs job to respond in such a way that maximizes the danger to hostages, IDF soldiers, or allows hamas to regroup and extend the war.   

The sooner hamas is killed off, or surrenders the sooner the killing stops.   This is all on hamas.

Mark_Michigan

While morbid...there is data on what the average civilian to combattantsnr death ratio is for urban warfare. Israel is lower than average

JSmith666

 “Assuming the number is accurate” 

Hamas is not a reliable source for casualty figures. They are constantly caught lying about the amount of civilians who die because they know this helps their cause. 

In the beginning of this war, they told the world that Israel bombed a hospital and that 800 people died and the building was destroyed. The story was picked up everywhere immediately, but the Israelis denied it. The next morning, the Israelis flew a drone over the hospital (which was untouched) and provided a video of a Hamas rocket falling short and landing in the vicinity of the hospital and causing minimal damage. 

Hamas never took away the 800 dead despite it clearly never happening. Still part of the casualty count

WaterFish19

Lmao. Why were there hostages for this to happen again? 



Why was Hamas keeping hostages near a massive group of civilians? 



No matter what is Israel’s fault huh?

TraditionalSpirit636

Israeli military recovered bodies of hostages from Gaza amidst ongoing military actions following Hamas attacks, resulting in significant casualties and displacement.

Recovery of Hostages' Bodies from Gaza by Israeli Military

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